- an instance of [[distributed press]] - [[2021 05 19]] - [[benedict lau]] - [[hypha]] - interested in building a tool that publishes through many different protocols - sharing social messages seamlessly - [[flancian]] - [[paul frazee]] - [[secure scuttlebut]] - [[beaker browser]] - [[hypercore protocol]] - [[ctzn]] - [[guo]] - matters.news - serving mostly chinese communities - looking at [[ipfs]], [[hypercore]] - working on a protocol similar to [[unwalled garden]], but also thinking of integrating [[rss]] - also interested on [[webmentions]] - [[vera]] - working on [[agora]] - background in distributed social systems, worked on (sp?) status, before mastodon - [[fauno]] - (mic incoming) :) - [[paul frazee]] - [[distributed vs federated]] - a bit stuck here currently - the way to conceptualize - [[federated]] ~ [[mastodon]] - [[distributed]] ~ [[ipfs]] mesh - completely open system, if you're in the mesh you're in - technologically, user experience wise is great - trying to figure out how to deal with the [[cost]] structure - in the case of social media, you're making your own twitter - how do you get economies of scale worked in there? - [[filecoin]]? - [[gateway model]] - ipfs gateway: there is more than one of them - if your mesh contains social data, you get a social network - [[ben]] what are the costs involved? - [[paul]] unsure but they all seem associated to a side business so far - advantages - ? - serverless clients are possible - [[ben]] - less well maintained gateways become issues for user experience - censorship - [[guo]] yes, gateways become a centralized point - gateway should be a backup after serverless client - [[paul frazee]] - spent 6-8 months working on a social network back in [[beaker]] - some stuff that stops you: - links that are a new protocol are an issue - ux killer on stuff like twitter - didn't have a push messaging system back then - didn't want to have to deal with spam - ux killer: no notifications unless mutual follow - [[aggregator]] - try to bring in positive properties of the system - [[flancian]] - [[metcalfe's law]] - [[ben]] - [[web mentions]] - [[guo]] - content feed + social graph as a distributed publication and social network - people can store their content feed and social graph anywhere - user control their data - search - separating storage and aggregation - [[paul frazee]] - database vs datamesh - federation puts application logic in the wire protocol - [[flancian]] - [[datamesh]] should probably be treated as a commons - [[guo]] - we could avoid many governance issues at the [[database]] layer - [[ben]] this sounds like the [[scuttlebutt]] and [[hypercore model]]? - [[paul]] when last involved there was no global entrypoint, it was [[gossip protocol]] - [[pubs]] were [[store and forward relays]] - information would flow 100% on the basis of the social graph - led to complexities; people could give you keys and still be unreachable - [[flancian]] - [[paul]] - how do you end up in a situation in which governance is required? - [[guo]] - datamesh seems like it does not require governance, but the aggregator does - (interlay vs overlay?) - [[ben]] aether (sp?) - distributed reddit - distributed moderation - liquid democracy-like - [[ben]] - we need to agree on: - schemas - distribution protocol - aggregator censorship - what happens when your computer ends up hosting hate speech? - you can stop the flow in the mesh and that applies negative evolutionary pressure - [[paul]] aether does [[default allow]], I do [[default deny]] - [[flancian]] - minimum exchange format - [[guo]] - choice of markdown vs html - chose html over markdown, it supports arbitrary media - [[encryption]] - exclusive content - hard to define protocol-level encryption standard - bake the encryption message into the html - [[mdx]] - [[ben]] decided to first publish/store things as html - most people want to have something ready-to-publish - but a consumption pattern arises: you copy/paste whole articles - on the dweb there is an opportunity for this as we can publish different formats of the same concept - get content in more than one format - [[paul]] - [[schemas]] in general - I would describe what you were discussing as "rich text format" - orthogonal to schemas - fighting with schemas since [[secure scuttlebutt]] - pissed off [[rdf]] people - reached https://ctzn.network/comment - scuttlebutt: did not impose *any* schema obligations; disastrous approach - [[unwalled gardens]]: enforced types - [[ctzn network]]: urls identifying the schemas with a machine readable format - rejects messages that don't comply with the schema - believe in this approach - if you don't, you end up in the tragedy of the commons or failure in collective action (scuttlebutt) - compatibility with the schema dictates everything you can do - you have a feature, you add a dependency - had a post type - would be nice if you have a topic - if you are not subscribed to [[cats]], you won't see it - but you can't rely on it as many clients won't support it - you might end up spamming old clients - [[fatal ambiguity]] - once you see this, schemas start seeming risky to change - you can do extension points, but would suggest against - current approach: - well defined schemas - people can determine their own schemas - control the [[ctzn network]] schemas - can have extension tables - [[ben]] - feel like [[scuttlebutt]] has a schema, otherwise you couldn't have more than one client - what it lacked, it seems, is versioning? - how do you manage upgrades? - [[paul]] the problem is multiple clients controlled by different devs - [[flancian]] what do you really need for features -- usually you'd want to have the minimum minimum schema requirements? - [[paul frazee]] - [[web mentions]]: exploring now - [[unwalled garden]] - difference between it and [[ctzn network]] - suppose you want to have the ability to have mentions in your comments - you have to keep parsing for entities if you store text or text-like - using [[hyperbee]] in [[ctzn]] - it can list directories or keyspaces in order - more like a database technology - for distributed press/unwalled garden: file oriented approach can work over http - [[guo]] in the comments problem, who owns the post data? - the post it's on could 'own' it - the [[comment]] writer could own it - this seems safer? - [[fauno]] - if we allow for comments, who is responsible for keeping them? hateful comments/censorship/etc - [[webmentions]]: fascist websites pinging you - people don't have time to moderate - [[ben]] same thing is seen in wordpress - [[fauno]] web mentions and how to keep bad parties out - [[flancian]] how will moderation work in [[ctzn network]]? - [[paul]] would like to have a great answer :) - [[reputation systems]] - no one size fits all - this lets you scale the work - reputational graph approach - [[subjective moderation]] - elected moderators